McVeigh was linked to the Christian Identity movement through his involvement in various white supremacist and anti-government groups...not the other way around.

He committed anti-federal government terror, not Christian terror.

........anyhoo.......
Can anyone straighten this out for me (I honestly don't know); One could intellectually separate a "Christian terrorist" from their religion because of the whole "thou shall not kill" business. You kill, you're not following your religion. Period.
Does the Koran have such a stipulation or is killing in the name of God deemed righteous in some cases?

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Hold my beer and watch this...

I'm curious to find that out as well, as I also honestly don't know...Squanto may have an answer, as he has hinted at a long response coming later tonight. I'd like to go looking for the answer myself, but I might get overwhelmed.

I should ask my brother - he bought a copy of the Quran once.

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mechaphil

I vote for #5, which is we don't know shit, and we won't know shit until we find out what he has been saying since the rampage, and even then, the Army and the media will albsolutely butcher the truth, whatever that may be.

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This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it.
--Emerson

While searcing for "Islamic commandments", I discovered "The Prohibitions of Islam". What caught my eye was Prohibition 8 - to kill a human being premeditatively. Upon looking at the link, I found this:


These look like three different interpretations from Arabic of the same verse. What I'm curious is where in the Quran's other verses might 'just cause' be defined.

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mechaphil

NVM, saw the ABC news link. ouch.

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Proud LGBTQQ Individual

DBTG, with all do respect, what part of my statement of willingness to call a person who massacres people in the name of Jesus a Christian Terrorist didn't you understand?

If you are wondering if I consider the Christians who blow up abortion clinics in the name of Jesus terrorists, the answer would be yes. Just like I call the Muslims who blow up school buses in Tel Aviv, the 9/11 hijackers, and this piece of shit Major Hasan, Islamic Terrorists. I also consider the environmentalist/animal rights whack jobs who commit acts of terror Eco-terrorists.

I show no bias, my friend.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

Just helping to clarify a few things.

I think the same people who say "guns don't kill people, people kill people" will be blaming Islam for this one(because they love being hypocritical I guess). Members of the military have a propensity toward being violent. Their rates of domestic violence should be enough to verify this. A spouse of a military person is like 1000% more likely to be shot with a handgun than any other person(guesstimate-but learned the stat in college). I'm not putting forth solutions, as I do not fully understand the entire situation, but their violent tendencies are where I'd allocate the resources to. Sorry if anyone wanted me to burn all the Qurans, but I just don't think it was solely based on his "militant" religion.

I'd like to clarify that religion and citizenship are totally not connected. They didn't sequester Shinto followers during WW2, but rather people of Japanese descent. Also, if you feel the military should discriminate on race or religion, because you're G.I., then remember you ALSO give up some of your individual rights in the workplace. Should an employer be able to label you a bible-thumping cracker as a reason for not hiring.

I think this thread may be on the verge of being just plain wrong. Right now it smells pretty bad, anyway. If a little more thought had of been put into these posts, there might not have been any at all. Maybe there's more comedy here than I'm sensing. Whatev, I ain't butt-hurt, just maybe a lil disappointed.

Daz, everyone here has been civil, intelligent and polite. This is not the thread for being a douche looking to pick a political fight. Either behave like a grown up in the spirit of the thread or get the fuck out.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

I'm thinking the bar graph on #1 is looking curiously phalic. Its been a while...I have a teenage daughter across the hall from me at night that refuses to go to sleep.

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Its NNYFAN, but you can just call me Kris.

As have I. If I think it's distasteful, then that's my opinion. Opinions were welcomed. In fact, someone asked people not to bash others opinions.

Daz, dedicating a post to insulting the intelligence of the people who have commented, bashing the military, bashing gun owners, and mocking those who disagree with you is the opposite of civil and polite. If you have an opinion about what happened and have something intelligent you'd like to share than share it by all means, but don't pull shit like that anymore here.

You admitted you don't understand the situation very well. Okay, so instead of attacking, why not read up on what happened, select an option in the poll that you feel best represents your views, and explain what you would do moving forward to prevent a massacre like this from happening again like everyone else has.

At least try, dude.

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

ETC, you're grandstanding here. I sent you a P.M., and you purposely ignored it, and posted this. Anyways, I don't fully understand why domestic violence is so high is what I meant, as I give no apologies for MY opinion. I'll let a mod handle this now, as I feel I bashed NO ONE, and you have called me a douche and said I'm bashing everyone.

The actual text:
Here is where I am coming from ETC. From what you posted about Phil's post I took it as "hey Phil you seem to express a great amount of disdain towards Christianity. Why don't you show the same towards Islam after a man committed mass murder in the name of Islam?"

Fair question but Phil then talked about how he had no problem criticizing militant sects of Islam which I think most people already knew. So to me I took it more as a proportions thing. His criticism of Christianity was not proportional to his criticism of Islam in light of recent events.

Which is why I said it looks like the roles are reversed with you. To me it just seems like you pay lip service to condemning Christian terrorism when juxtaposed alongside you criticism of Islam. I'm not saying this is true, it's just how I view it.

Also just because this guy kills in the name of Islam doesn't mean it's then fair to criticize Islam for the individual's actions. I have never seen you criticize Christianity like you have Islam with say the shooting of an abortion doctor. It's always been about the individual and how the minority doesn't represent the religion.

Which is why I think you're just paying lip service in regards to Christian terrorism. I don't know you though and I can't speak for you. I'll take you at your word and give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't biased here So then it just comes down to your reluctance to criticize Christianity as much as you have Islam. Which brings us back to my original post about roles being reversed based around my interpretation of your critique to Phil.

Honestly to me it seems like you pay lip service to the Christian terrorist part. On topics like Islamic terrorism you do a great job at bringing up facts, op ed columns, and you contribute a lot to the threads. On the Christian terrorism it's simply "yeah extremism is bad."

Hope that clears up where I am coming from. *edit* wow 5 hours of studying straight does nothing to help grammar.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

With all due respect, I would venture to guess that more thought has been put into posts in this thread than most others in recent memory.

If you have a problem with how the discussion is going, please move on and don't participate. These are heady topics, and I'd prefer to not have any bullshitting.

Funny cause Ecclesiastes talks about a time for war and well war involves killing. The Quran does too. Perhaps the best thing for those who are confused about Islam's stance on violence should go to a Mosque and ask an Imam to point you in the right direction. Not joking on that one.

XC do you honestly believe that Islam says it's ok to kill as long as you say you've done it in the name of Allah? Just insert Christianity in for Islam and Jesus for Allah and well you'd get a shit storm from Christians saying that doesn't justify murder.

As for McVeigh I'll make this PAINFULLY clear. I personally do not believe he is a Christian terrorist. Nor do I take his actions as proof that Christianity is a violent religion. My whole thing about that is if you employ the same logic many are using with Hassan and how it relates to Islam then you get what I originally posted about McVeigh. Using the same logic people have been using with Hassan one could then assume unfairly that it's completely fair to label McVeigh as a Christian terrorist and Christianity as a violent religion.

As far as we know he's not a member of Al Qaeda. If he were chances are the FBI would have stepped in before this horrendous event took place. All we know is he tried to make contact with them but there is nothing saying he had or that he was in Al Qaeda. Which just leaves a very angry and disturbed man acting on his own with a perversion of his religion to justify his actions. I'm asking how is that just cause to criticize Islam?

How many Imams around the world have stood up and spoken out against Al Qaeda? How many have said it's not representative of Islam nor is it's mission a religiously righteous one? A lot. Going back from 2001 to now a lot of Imams from around the world have said this. Criticizing Hassan, his actions, and his warped view of the world is fair. Branding Islam as the cause is not.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

DBTG, I promise you that the next time a Christian commits an act of terrorism in the name of Jesus I will be the first person to call him a Christian terrorist. Of course, I'll feel free to do the same for every act of Islamic terror in the name of Allah, too, and certainly welcome you to do the same.

All I ask is that we call a spade a spade, and not show bias or hypocrisy based on internal prejudices. Deal?

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

I agree this comment may not have been necessary, but it's how I felt(and I wasn't even really being condescending). My point is that it's either extremist terrorism or it's not. This seems to be going wayyyy deeper than this. I think it's just a simple tragedy, not unlike many other recently. The guy may have just lost it, like so many others, and I suggested looking for reasons. That's what the thread was for.

I think that's the difference with us. For me it's more of the blame the religion thing I don't care for. Just because someone is shouting they are doing it in the name of their god to me doesn't make it fair to attack that religion.

This Hassan guy is shaping up to be an Islamic terrorist. I am not quick to pull the trigger on that claim because of the weight it carries with it. I'd rather all the facts come in first. Until then I personally will refrain from calling him an Islamic terrorist. He's many things, a murder, a coward, and a live. When he starts talking and if he says "I did it for Islam" then you'll get no argument from me about if he is or isn't an Islamic terrorist.

More than anything I would like to know what his motivation was. There are a lot of factors here, if it were as simple as "he got the word from Al Qaeda to do it" then yes there is no doubt it's a terrorist attack. However, if it turns out he snapped and went postal then I don't know if I would label it an Islamic terrorist attack or not. That scenario is a little fuzzier to me.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.

DBTG, do you realize we are only tiny fractions away from having like minds on this issue? Scary, eh?

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Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror, 'cause I get better looking each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man. Oh lord, it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can.

No I do realize that. I realized that during that epic right wing extremists are more dangerous than left thread. I just never get why people blame Islam for extremist actions but then get upset when the same unfair thing is done to say Christianity or some other group.

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All the things we wanted each other to be we'll never be.